economies of scale: nice, useful
greedy megacrops: not nearly as nice or useful

how do we resolve this.....

@grainloom to be more precise, local nonhierarchical unions directly managing local industry and cooperating globaly with other unions to get goods and resources around the globe to where they need to go.

@grainloom if you arent convinced just consider exactly how much infrastructure is already in place to do this for businesses and commodities

@the_gayest_doggo @grainloom
Money is an abstraction to represent value. It's not a good abstraction, but it persists because the global economy is in a local minimum because the disadvantages of sharing information outweigh the advantages. An economy with sufficient incentives for economic agents to communicate their values directly without the abstraction layer would be more efficient, assuming the existence of an agreeable language for that communication

I could tag someone to provide details about valueflows, which is a grammar for that language, but that's probably more information than you want. The important thing to know is that the benefits of collectives aren't just for adversarial situations where we interface with capitalism. We have a basis for building economic networks that are competitive with capitalist business units comparable in size while being just to labor, community, and the environment

The issue is bringing trust-based networks up to scale with multinational corporations. This can happen, but folks are still working on the software support

My interest is in using games to replace discourse an evidence-based approach to economic, social, and political theory

@yaaps @the_gayest_doggo @grainloom you sound like you'd be interesting to discuss games, gamification, and levels of emotional investment as an indicator of probable transference between game and life with. I'm a game designer currently using a tabletop role-playing game to confront colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, and assumptions about non European cultures.

@WanderingBeekeeper

> you sound like you'd be interesting to discuss games, gamification, and levels of emotional investment as an indicator of probable transference between game and life with

Challenge accepted

@yaaps let's start off with proportions. To what extent, such as a % of page count, can a therapeutic or training game be entertaining, compared with the % of social issues, educational subtext, etc in a game marketed as entertainment? I'm currently maintaining a strong undercurrent in 1879 focused on class struggle, income inequality, and colonialism, taking up about 10 - 15% of the role-playing material, and built into the mechanics, with a quantified social class structure.

@WanderingBeekeeper
The difference between entertainment and education as a genre is subjective. If you avoid being didactic and make the lesson implicit in the material, you could have an immersive experience that would be very educational yet still perceived as a game

When you publish in a print format, you have examples from related print genres as guidance for how to present material that's not part of the flow of the text. It's going to vary with genre and length, but a general principle is to base your asking price on the page count relevant to the title

"The Landlord's Game" differed from Monopoly in a couple ways. The cooperative rules made for a better game, in that it was actually fun to play, but focus on the rules that made people miserable is what made publishers money. I'm the wrong person to ask about marketing, though. I choose fun every time πŸ˜‚

@yaaps I was afraid you were going to go with qualitative over quantitative. Trying to find the sweet spot where I can work in a moral lesson or a sharp bit of cultural criticism without being preachy is something I'm still working on, and given your answer, I may always be working on.
As far as printing costs, MSRP, and all that, I've been working with FASA for several years. I'm initially offering my game in PDF only, with one off hardcopy editions for the higher paying patrons.

@WanderingBeekeeper
I don't always succeed, but I try not to be an asshole 😎

But yeah. Electronic distribution still has price points based on page count, even though there isn't such a thing as amortizing the production costs over a run of physical copies and how people feel about paying for your work will depend on how the content meets their expectations for the price point. Bonus material is great as long as it's obvious that the material the reader paid for is present

I want to establish economic partnerships between creator owned production entities (individuals and collectives) and consumer owned distributors in order to accurately model the economic realities in the social relationship and equitable distribute risk and reward, but you're left with pricing structures based on legacy methods of assessing value until that happens

@yaaps hoping the products find their own price level among socialist constructs within a capitalist matrix? That's ambitious. I'm all for owning the means of production, and customers owning their distribution channels makes sense, but external capitalism is going to prevent the products from drifting out of alignment with the general pricing structure of the larger environment, unless you've got a way to insulate the process of creation and distribution within its own paired silos.

@WanderingBeekeeper
There's a spectrum of creative activity from pulp fiction to indie video games where creators have a significant amount of freedom at the cost of poor leverage dealing with Amazon, Valve, and other distributors. Meanwhile, readers and players are struggling with discovery. The consequence is that most creators have subsistence incomes while doing unpaid labor exploring the creative space in their respective genres and they'll have to cut deals taking a large portion of the value from them if their concept proves marketable. The high rent and low quality of the marketplaces makes them vulnerable, but it's absolutely ambitious and more than a little scary

@yaaps I've seen grocery coops and similar pull channels be successful. Have you got a working model of a customer owned distribution channel that can be used as a baseline? Also, how does discovery of pull channels work for the creative collective? How are the multiple relationships between creative collective and pull channels managed?

@WanderingBeekeeper
Building the working model to establish a baseline would be the current step. I was actually thinking of it as documenting a pattern. I have a financial baseline from operating games where I solicited donations to cover operating expenses and an education in introducing institutions that are new to a culture

Right now, the target culture is in the habit of paying up front for production costs and getting a copy of the game and some swag instead of ownership in the game. Even people who support free software invest in games and get a limited edition t-shirt instead of equity. Then they tell friends to buy the game

Also in mobile, 50k downloads is where companies start spamming developers with offers to buy their game. The asking price is only $500 at that level, but the existence of that market has a lot of different implications when taken with the fact that the break even level with my business plan is about 20k downloads

There's a bootstrap plan that involves adapting some tested games that have yet to be released and targeting them for ActivityPub and mobile. In the process, I'm developing some infrastructure to make it attractive for developers to target distributed systems for multiplayer. So creators should discover the pull network the same way they discover embedded ad networks and in-app purchases, which is the distribution channel publishes software frameworks to support their business model

My vision is to transition from game producer to distributor, pilot the concept of player cooperative, establish relationships with producers, and encourage imitation. There's a difference in attitudes towards licensing between programming and other creative disciplines to bridge. I have a strategy for that, but it's still a tough row to hoe

Once some commercial relationships are established, we can also develop a valueflows vocabulary for the exchange to make consent driven transactions frictionless and move any currency involved directly to our interfaces with capital. (Pay the rent and buy food with money spent on games without incurring taxes on intermediate stages)

@yaaps you've got a really exciting idea here, of player cooperatives using pull channels to discover new works and obtain games, but I'm uncertain of how it would remap to accommodate a book based product from the software product you're developing this for. I'm seeing a necessity, among other issues, of migrating from traditional copyright to Creative Commons licensing, just to allow the distribution methods that would be needed. And that doesn't reach to hardcopy properly. 2/2

@WanderingBeekeeper @yaaps *noses in*

I haven't been involved in this conversation and don't intend to be, it is way over my head, BUT I do want to mention that Evil Hat and the FATE system are excellent examples of CC-licensed TTRPGs

@InspectorCaracal @yaaps a good point. I've based my own use of CC on their implementation. Fred's State of the Hat lends transparency to their finances, but I don't remember seeing anything from them on how their CC decisions have impacted their distribution and success. Do you have a link?

@WanderingBeekeeper @yaaps ooh, not offhand, but I'll dig around and pop back in here if I find something. :3

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